Exact Navigation utilizing LEO Satellites


Dr. Tyler Reid, co-founder and CTO of Xona House Programs, discusses a brand new sort of worldwide navigation satellite tv for pc system (GNSS). Xona House Programs plans to supply centimeter-level positioning accuracy and can serve the rising autonomous automobile neighborhood, the place exact navigation is essential. Reid discusses the benefits and technical challenges of a low Earth orbit (LEO) resolution.

Tyler Reid

Tyler Reid is co-founder and CTO of Xona House Programs. Beforehand, Tyler labored as a Analysis Engineer on the Ford Motor Firm in localization and mapping for self-driving vehicles. He has additionally labored as an engineer at Google and as a lecturer at Stanford College, the place he co-taught the GPS course. Tyler acquired his PhD (2017) and MSc (2012) in Aeronautics and Astronautics from Stanford and B.Eng. (’10) in Mechanical Engineering from McGill.






lilly: Whats up and welcome to the Robohub podcast. Would you thoughts introducing your self?

Tyler: Whats up and thanks once more for having me on right now. So I’m Tyler Reid and I’m co-founder and CTO of Xona House Programs.

lilly: And may you inform us a little bit bit about Xona House Programs?

Tyler: Yeah, for positive. So Xona House Programs is an organization centered on, mainly constructing business GPS satellites.

So actually shifting away from the mannequin of, you realize, these sort of authorities operated methods like GPS which have a sort of very particular, you realize, authorities oriented mission. Transferring in the direction of a system that’s, you realize, commercially pushed round sort of wants of business customers and, you realize, going extra in that course to kind of assist these customers going ahead.

lilly: And what do you assume are kind of the advantages of going business with a GPS sort know-how?

Tyler: Yeah, for positive. So to talk a little bit bit about my background and kind of the place a few of that is coming from. So, so I kind of got here from the world of, you realize, GPS and began actually in grad college on that facet of issues.

And transitioned after grad college to working in sort of trade analysis. So I used to be working in autonomous autos, working with these methods and sort of seeing these methods actually closely depend on, on GPS and sort of what’s on the market right now. And actually the state-of-the-art of the know-how was, you realize, having third get together corporations mainly ship correction info for the GPS satellite tv for pc.

So the knowledge coming from GPS immediately was actually not fairly on the degree that it should be to assist these, you realize, methods like self-driving which might be actually making an attempt to get right down to the centimeter degree location to, to, you realize, drive themselves on the highway. and so to get to that degree, you had sort of these corporations whose entire sort of function was to ship, you realize, higher orbit, higher clock info than what GPS offers you immediately to actually drive these errors right down to that sort of that centimeter degree.

And due to the best way the system was architected, which actually wasn’t, you realize, meant for use this fashion, it led to. you realize, the fragilities in that sort of sign. So while you begin to drive underneath bushes or in sure environments, you’d usually lose that sort of centimeter degree location. And it simply, it kind of left some, I suppose, holes to be stuffed by, by one thing else.

And what that’s one thing else was was, was a part of my job to determine, okay. You realize, was it possibly terrestrial based mostly resolution? Is it laptop imaginative and prescient resolution is a sort of all the above. And, you realize, with my background coming from, you realize, satellite tv for pc navigation and GPS and sort of seeing how these methods have supported, you realize, some security, important purposes like civil aviation, which is, you realize, a part of what my sort of, the thesis work was in and sort of enthusiastic about how that would evolve to assist, you realize, a few of these floor methods like autonomous autos, but additionally uAVs and, and sort of different kind of,kind of autonomous methods going ahead, that kind of actually led to this.

Okay, effectively, how can we modify issues on the area facet somewhat than simply making an attempt to make use of what we now have from these sort of authorities methods to, to kind of, you realize, fill the gaps, I suppose. And so from a, from a business perspective, you realize, what are among the advantages that you just get there? Nicely, actually you’re not tied to sort of the, the system that, that the federal government offers for you, which, you realize, is sort of static. It’s there for a purpose. And it, you realize, it’s actually a implausible system and it, it helps billions of customers. It has created sort of all, you realize, all these use instances that we, you realize, I’ve, I’ve a horrible sense of course.

So, you realize, figuring out sort of the blue dot to seek out my manner dwelling has, has been, you realize, extremely helpful. However, you realize, as we take into consideration shifting away from, you realize, people who can. use that info to kind of get near the place they should go after which sort of end the job themselves and, and going in the direction of autonomous methods that actually depend on that blue dot being, you realize, precisely proper the place it’s to, to, to actually get to that time kind of on their very own, with none enter from, from any people.

There actually is kind of that there’s kind of a leap that should occur there when it comes to, you realize, The sorts of ranges of, reliability and in addition, you realize, precision that, that these methods assist. And so enthusiastic about this from sort of the business perspective, you realize, what are you able to present and, and changing into sort of from an aerospace background, you realize, how are you going to, you realize, evolve this area section to actually be centered on the, on the business facet.

And so. Among the advantages. There’s you, you simply, you realize, you’ve gotten sort of a clean slate in a way. And so you can begin with, you realize, what do we actually have to assist customers on the bottom? After which we are able to begin to architect the system, you realize, round a few of these, you realize, rising wants somewhat than, you realize, supporting issues from in a long time, previously, I suppose.

lilly: And when it comes to like attending to that centimeter degree accuracy do you assume that a lot of the technological developments are within the area facet or like, do you intend on doing does Xona area methods plan on doing lots of that error correction, like comparable error correction sort stuff and like the total stack?

Tyler: Yeah, that’s a terrific query. And I’ll say in some sense, we’re not inventing, we’re not reinventing the wheel. We’re kind of, you realize, we’re utilizing lots of the strategies that’s been effectively established by the kind of excessive precision GNSS trade, which has supported traditionally [00:05:00] issues like surveying issues like mapping, precision agriculture, you realize, are huge customers of, of this sort of know-how.

And so actually sort of constructing on the shoulders of giants in, in that respect. You realize, how, how are of us getting excessive precision right now and sort of, you realize, evolving that to kinda the subsequent, the subsequent sort of, you realize, what would possibly the subsequent kind of, area infrastructure seem like to, to make use of these strategies and sort of make them even higher for folk.

And so, you realize, while you take a look at the sort of errors that stack up in GPS, you’ve bought. The ambiance is an enormous one, you realize, as these indicators refract by means of the completely different layers of the ambiance, notably the ionosphere and troposphere, you realize, that that’s a, an error that kind of manifests itself on the consumer degree, but additionally simply the orbit and clock info coming from the satellite tv for pc, as a result of in the end you’re triangulating your place from, you realize, a number of completely different factors in area.

You higher know very effectively what these factors have been, cuz in any other case you’re not gonna know very effectively. What, what your place is on the finish of the day. So you must determine a solution to get, you realize, centimeter degree, you realize, orbital info of the GPS satellite tv for pc, in an effort to in flip kind of get your place to the kind of centimeter degree as effectively.

And so how do you do this with kind of, you realize, as we take into consideration this sort of evolving from, you realize, the sort of, the strategies which have been used previously to, you realize, what is likely to be attainable, sooner or later? Nicely, it seems that one of many huge sort of inputs to that system, When it comes to how rapidly you may get from sort of meter degree place right down to sort of the centimeter degree is how rapidly the satellites transfer overhead.

And it seems that should you make it such that the satellites transfer overhead in a short time, there’s simply much more info in that kind of very fast move than you’ve gotten from these additional satellites, which historically are sort of medium earth orbit to assist that convergence get you from sort of a tens of minutes sort of place to a minute or much less sort of place. And, and naturally there are strategies which might be making that all the time higher on a regular basis from a medium earth orbit perspective. You realize, while you’re utilizing sort of the standard GSS satellites to, to get to that prime precision, there are strategies evolving to, to get there sooner and sooner.

However in case you have that very quick kind of movement throughout the sky, it simply makes these strategies even higher than that they’d be in any other case. And in order that’s, that’s, that’s an instance of the sort of factor you are able to do from a, you realize, business area section perspective to, to only kind of convey extra functionality to, to of us on the bottom.

lilly: And so in case you have, should you get higher efficiency from having shifting autos, and so that you’re having them at decrease orbits, you additionally want like three or so to get your place does having greater than that assist? And what number of, like what number of whole satellites do you assume is gonna be the correct quantity?

Tyler: Yeah, that’s a very good query.

What it comes right down to is, you realize, the extra satellites, the higher , that’s sort of the straightforward query, the straightforward reply there, however mm-hmm, actually we’re, you realize, actually leveraging an identical method that’s been used from, from GPS, which is called trilateration.. And what that’s, is there’s mainly 4 unknowns in that system and the 4 unknowns or your X, Y, Zed (or sorry, that’s Canadian – XYZ) and, and time, and, and the explanation time is kind of an uncertainty there’s that the best way you calculate vary to the completely different satellites is that the satellite tv for pc sends a sign and the sign mainly says it was this time once I despatched it, the sign takes a while for it to journey to you. You obtain it a while later.

And so the distinction between the time it was despatched and the time you acquired it’s the, mainly the time of flight of the sign. And, and that point multiplied by the pace of sunshine is, is the vary to the satellite tv for pc. So, should you do this to a number of satellites, now you’ve calculated one thing that appears like a spread to you as a result of it’s, you realize, that, that point of flight to a handful of satellites, you’d consider, you realize, in 3d area, you want, you’ve gotten three satellites, three unknown, you realize, XYZ place.

You realize, what’s the, what’s that fourth unknown, you realize, why do you’ve gotten that further unknown there? And that’s since you don’t know precisely what time it’s while you acquired it, you acquired it at some native time, which is, you realize, no matter time your cellphone says, however you realize, how, how correct is that on the finish of the.

Tyler: And while you consider the sensitivity of the issue of how correct you really want to know your time to do to calculate these ranges? Nicely, it seems. One nanosecond of time, uncertainty is, is a foot or 30 centimeter. And so it stacks up very, in a short time while you’re speaking about sort of nanosecond of, of time data, and it’s very exhausting to, to take care of nanosecond kind of timing in your cellphone.

Your time, time in your cellphone is extra on the sort of microsecond degree. More often than not, that’s sort of the place it must be to, to do its job, which is sort of telecommunications and all these things. However should you’re speaking about doing precision ranging. You really want that sort of nanosecond sort of functionality.

And so somewhat than, you realize, having to convey an atomic clock with you on a regular basis to kind of maintain your time at that kind of, you realize, very excessive, exact degree, you simply remedy for it as an alternative. So that you add a fourth satellite tv for pc and now, you realize, you get the three dimensions and that point dimension to, to get your place kind of right down to, you realize, our expertise right now is extra sort of at that meter degree, however you realize, that kind of handful of nanosecond sort of uncertainty sort of level. And so, you realize, going, in order that sort of minimal quantity it’s essential to get some sort of place info is, is 4. It does assume you don’t have any different [00:10:00] sensors or, or nothing else like that.

So should you simply sort of solely have your sort of GPS receiver and nothing else 4 satellites is sort of the naked quantity it’s essential to, to get that first place. so you realize, what number of extra do it’s essential to do the job? Nicely, effectively, you need extra than simply 4 to sort of be sturdy to that. And, and the reason being, is you begin kind of shifting round on the earth.

You, it’s possible you’ll not all the time have overseas view should you sort of have, you’re assuming you’ve gotten full view of the sky, all it takes is a constructing to dam one a part of the sky and also you solely have three. So you actually wanna design that system to, you realize, have greater than 4 in view always that you just have been on earth.

So that you just’re sturdy and issues like buildings being in the best way, bushes being in the best way. you realize, additionally simply, typically it’s, you realize, you’re gonna have simply one thing, that’s gonna provide you with increased precision in case you have much more satellites in view, trigger you’ve gotten extra measurements accessible to you and.

The the correct of quantity that almost all, I suppose I’ll say GNSS methods have come to right now is extra at that sort of 10 or 12 variety of satellites in view. And that’s what GPS has right now. That’s what the European Galileo system has right now. And so sort of in addition to the, the Russian, sorry, the Russian GLONASS, and Chinese language Beidou methods are, are sort of in that comparable variety of satellites.

And so. Tenish or so satellite tv for pc is about the place you need be sort of at minimal and the extra satellites you must simply higher, it’s gonna work in additional locations, I suppose.

lilly: Mm-hmm if it’s 10 or 12, like seen out of your gadget directly, I assume they don’t have protection of in all places unexpectedly for the total constructed out constellation.

Tyler: Yeah, that’s a terrific query. And so when, while you’re speaking about sort of the GPS system, which is deployed in a medium Earth orbit, which is about 20,000 kilometer altitudeor so. That system has about 30 satellites to attain that aim. In order that’s about what number of satellites that while you deploy kind of on the excessive orbit that you just want. We’re concentrating on a decrease orbit than that right now, which is extra sort of within the thousand kilometer vary..

So, so being that 20 instances nearer to earth, it seems that satellite tv for pc footprint simply shrinks and shrinks and shrinks. Trigger you’re simply a lot nearer to, to earth. And so that you want extra satellites to get the identical quantity of protection. So we’re concentrating on a couple of 300 satellite tv for pc constellation or so.

lilly: OK. talking concerning the time of flight measurements, is there any, like, would you contemplate and what are the benefits and drawbacks of, as an alternative of doing the a technique time of flight and having to maintain observe of all that synchronization with doing kind of a two-way ranging, the place your gadget is the one pinging?

Tyler: Yeah, that’s a terrific query. And, and this was one of many unique trades that was performed when of us have been creating GPS. And so some individuals smarter than me had, had put lots of thought into, you realize, why you would possibly. Do this sort of system over say this sort of two-way time switch system.

Yeah. And among the benefits there, the primary one is de facto that in case your gadget has to ping again to the satellite tv for pc, it does two issues and one in every of them is that it, it, it’s an even bigger energy draw in your gadget as a result of your gadget is having to sort of ship a radio sign {that a} satellite tv for pc has to obtain.

And in order that that’s one piece. And the opposite piece of it’s that the satellites then additionally need to, be capable to obtain all these indicators from a number of customers. And so you find yourself placing a constraint on the capability of the satellite tv for pc within the sense that now that satellite tv for pc has to get pings again from all these of us which might be utilizing it, possibly just a few hundred or a number of thousand individuals directly can use it, which is, it finally ends up being sort of a limiter on the variety of of us who can truly use that system.

Whereas should you use this sort of a technique time switch system, the place though you do want kind of an additional satellite tv for pc in view to unravel the issue. You’ll be able to in idea kind of, you realize, assist an infinite variety of customers. And so, which is the case of GPS right now, the place we see it supporting, you realize, billions of customers and you’ll, you realize, add as many units as you need with out having that constraint.

In order that, that that’s the large one.

lilly: Yeah, that is smart. So if you’re at this decrease orbit and GPS satellites, The normal authorities funded ones nonetheless exist above you. Can you employ them to raised observe your satellites?

Tyler: Yeah. completely. And that turns into one of many inputs, to the system, for positive.

As a result of, and folk have performed lots of stuff in, in low Earth orbit, supported by GPS as a result of a part of the service quantity of, of these GPS is to assist purposes in decrease orbit. So you may consider earth imagery, the worldwide area station, all these sorts of parents are, are utilizing that. That being stated, we’re designing the system to be GPS impartial.

Simply because there’s lots of curiosity from that from of us to have that functionality, you’re not essentially totally depending on, you realize, this different system that you just’re augmenting having some capability to kind of function, with out enter from that system is, is advantageous in some methods, however it’s there and it’s a nice enter to the system that, that we’re placing collectively.

Tyler: And so it is smart to, to incorporate these measurements a manner of simply making the system extra sturdy on the finish of the day.

For a consumer, like for the typical individual with a cellphone, will the GPS receiver that I have already got on my cellphone work along with your system instantly? Or are there modifications that need to be made?

Tyler: Yeah, that’s a very good query too. And it, there’ll seemingly need to be modifications to, to the gadget in your cellphone right now, however we see that as a part of the kind of pure evolution of how the GNSS chip units are evolving and. One in all our, I suppose our basic strategy to this isn’t to compete with the GNSS receiver producers it’s to work with them, to include [00:15:00] our service into their units.

And, and so actually working to, you realize, make it, make that kind of adoption as just like what say including among the new constellations which have come on-line over time is like, so, you realize, initially there was solely GPS chips after which there was GPS plus BLONASS chips, after which there GPS plus Galileo plus BLONASS plus Beidou chips.

And so actually making an attempt to type. Proceed that evolution of together with a few of these, these new methods into these chip units. And so working with the, the GNSS receiver producers for most certainly the subsequent technology of units, as a result of notably the sort of ASIC units that you just discover in your cellphone are, are so optimized for a selected software that becoming in new issues is, is an enormous problem. For among the extra, I’ll say, this, kind of, excessive efficiency receivers which might be on the market right now which might be supporting among the excessive precision purposes on that facet of issues, that there’s some, chance of, having that be extra akin to a, a software program replace than,than kind of a brand new system.

lilly: Fascinating. I wished to pivot a little bit bit and speak extra about, a few of your work with autonomous autos and at like, there’s clearly a transparent, like interface between these two issues, however what are among the similarities and variations when it comes to like the way you truly are fixing technical issues or the autonomy on the autos and the autonomy on the satellites or any of that sort of factor?

Tyler: Yeah, that’s a terrific query. So I’ll say half, possibly I’ll, I’ll take. Give a little bit little bit of historical past of kind of the place among the, I suppose, kind of my time in autonomous automobile kind of led to this curiosity in kind of pursuing this sort of satellite tv for pc navigation facet. so once I entered the sort of autonomous automobile realm and I used to be working at Ford motor firm on the time, a part of my function at that at the moment was kind of a mix of know-how scouting and elementary analysis .

In know-how scouting, it was actually working with the startups, notably in Silicon valley, but additionally different know-how corporations as effectively, to actually set up, you realize, what’s the state-of-the-art in, you realize, location and mapping applied sciences for. At first was, you realize, centered on sort of these degree 4 degree 5 totally autonomous autos, however it was additionally kind of supporting among the degree two degree three sort of, driver help methods as effectively.

And kind of as soon as establishing that sort of the place, what the state of they’re, the know-how was a part of that and kind of, making an attempt to determine which of them have been among the market leaders was to ascertain, you realize, what are the necessities for these methods in the end, and which one is sort of closest to the place the necessities ultimately should be.

So, you realize, what are the situation necessities for, for autonomy? And that turned out to be a, a a lot tougher query than I feel we initially thought, I feel of us have been like, oh, you realize, 10 centimeters appears to be the suitable quantity, however it was usually sort of unjustified. It was kind of a ten centimeter appears to be a quantity the place the system fails the least.

In order that looks like a great place to begin. However we wished to sort of take a step again and say, okay, basically, you realize, what do these autos really want when it comes to, you realize, a bounding field, should you wanna consider it that manner round a automobile to say, okay, that is the situational consciousness that I want to do that, this sort of household of duties or this sort of household of duties.

And actually what it turns into is there’s some purposes the place it’s essential to know what highway you’re on. Some purposes it’s essential to know what lane you’re in. And a few purposes we actually have to know, you realize, to the centimeter, to have the ability to steer the automotive inside the lane and sort of, you realize, get to the place you’re going.

And it turned out that, you realize, seeing sort of the place, the place the necessities in the end wanted to go and sort of the place the state-of-the-art know-how was. There was at the least in my thoughts, very a lot a spot of, you realize, the place, the place issues, kind of stood right now. And that led to the motivation, at the least from, from my facet to say, okay, effectively, what’s one thing we are able to do from the infrastructure facet to assist fill that hole?

As a result of one of many developments that was taking place within the autonomous automobile trade, at the least within the time once I was, was there was. You realize, the, the sort of variety of sensors, the quantity of compute on the autos was making these autos in some sense, prohibitively costly. You realize, you had a lot {hardware} on the autos, the autos have been sort of these sort of million greenback, very specialised sort of autos.

It simply didn’t scale that effectively, whereas should you can offload a few of that to the infrastructure facet, to assist a lot of autos, You realize, that appeared to make extra sense to me at the least. And, and so this went again to, okay, effectively, what, you realize, being sort of somebody from an aerospace background, place, navigation background, considering, okay, effectively, what can we do from an area, infrastructure facet to assist this sort of place navigation and, and time downside.

Tyler: And so I feel when it comes to, you realize, the place these two issues are, are kind of coming collectively is, is de facto seeing this from a okay, how can the, this infrastructure assist the wants of these methods? There are, after all, some, some crossover between the 2 within the sense that there are applied sciences which might be, I feel gonna be used on each within the sense that, you realize, you need these satellites while you’re deploying a big constellation to have, you realize, a excessive diploma of autonomy about themselves when it comes to fault monitoring when it comes to integrity monitoring.

As a result of in the end you’re making an attempt to. You realize, assist these, you realize, security, important methods within the, within the case of automotive. And so having the, you realize, lots of that sort of fault checking, kind of performed in an autonomous manner. In order that be caught in a short time, it turns into crucial, however there’s additionally simply elementary issues like, you realize, basically a automobile when it’s doing its navigation and positioning is working [00:20:00] one thing like a Kalman filter or some one thing that’s combining these measurements.

These sorts of issues are gonna be working on, on the satellites for orbit dedication. So it’s a special context of downside, however you realize, basically an identical software in, ultimately of the day. And there’s additionally some components of, I feel, collaborative, you realize, infrastructure as effectively. So while you consider, you realize, self-driving automotive driving by itself with a complete bunch of sensors on it, effectively, that’s.

You’re sort of simply making an attempt to switch one human in a automotive. Perhaps that’s not one of the simplest ways to do it. Perhaps there’s some benefits to having autos work collectively in a collaborative manner the place, you realize, a automobile that’s maybe down the highway from you may share sensor info or situational consciousness info in an effort to set up that situational consciousness, you realize, on the metropolis degree the place you may see round corners, see aroundyou know, different obstacles that you may’t see to sort of get to the purpose the place you’re driving as safely, as you realize, all of the people mixed on the highway, somewhat than sort of only one human can solely see one a part of the view of the world. And so I feel there’s a component of that that may discover its manner into the, the area sort of the area and sort of floor segments that assist these sort of area methods going ahead.

Y know, how can these methods work collectively to seek out faults in one another the place you realize, these, these sorts of concepts that I feel are, are attention-grabbing as effectively.

lilly: Yeah. that’s a very good level. And I’m a little bit in listening to extra about this concept of getting the satellites collaborate and kind of what are essentially the most technically difficult or technically promising components of that.

Tyler: Yeah, that’s a terrific query as effectively. There’s, I’ll say there’s quite a bit taking place in, within the area trade now, I feel even in comparison with, you realize, even 5 or 10 years in the past that they actually make lots of this attainable. And you realize, one of many huge ones is simply the dimensions of the constellations being deployed nowadays.

And I feel that that’s enabled by. A couple of issues just like the decrease price of entry to area, you realize, SpaceX is I feel one of many extra seen gamers there, however there are after all others and the opposite is simply, you realize, completely different satellite tv for pc manufacturing strategies. So constructing satellites extra such as you would construct a automotive on an meeting line somewhat than sort of these bespoke sort of one satellite tv for pc’s in a room the place you’ve gotten a bunch of individuals sort of placing stuff on it.

It’s a fairly, it’s only a completely different mannequin of, of assembling this stuff. And. Once we take a look at the sorts of applied sciences that I feel are, are kind of coming into that kind of satellite tv for pc realm which might be possibly even borrowed from locations like automotive, the place, you realize, particularly while you’re speaking about meeting and, and testing, you realize, making one thing that’s, you realize, very sturdy in, in sort of excessive volumes that.

Form of brings this stuff collectively. I feel that, that that’s at the least one instance of, you realize, I feel the place these two industries can be taught from one another, I suppose. Uh, okay. So I feel so far as, you realize, autonomy on the satellites and the flexibility to kind of collaborate with one another, I feel one of many huge, the, one of many huge parts of that’s the capability for the satellites to only speak to one another, to start with. And so the flexibility to kind of move info.

Between satellites is, is I feel a, an enormous milestone kind of as a part of that. And I feel one of many enabling applied sciences there that we’re, that we’ve seen kind of come to mild is the, this capability of sort of having inter satellite tv for pc communication hyperlinks between these satellites. And there’s been lots of, I feel development of in each optical and radio, sort of,you realize, intersatellite hyperlinks between that to move that info round.

And I feel that, that, I imply step one to collaboration as it’s an automotive as effectively, it’s simply establishing I feel that that’s customary and in addition the kind of capability for this stuff to move info between one another. I feel there’s actually been challenges in automotive on that facet with, with establishing requirements, with issues like vehicle-to-things, so V2 V to X, so automobile -to-stuff, or different automobile sort of communication hyperlinks and establishing simply, you realize, what’s the spectrum that we shared? What’s the protocols for these sort of communications? And I feel it’s, it’s one factor to do it in a sort of. You realize, if one say automotive OEM decides to do it a sure manner they usually can do this between all their autos.

It’s one other to do it kind of throughout autos of all completely different producers, kind of in a standardized manner. And so I feel that that’s that’s one of many challenges is simply kind of establishing, establishing kind of the know-how and the sort of requirements for that communication throughout, throughout satellites.

And naturally, as we take into consideration deploying our system, we predict principally of kind of communication between the satellites that we now have. However it’s attention-grabbing to consider, you realize, potential, you realize, cross kind of, communication between different platforms as effectively.

lilly: Yeah. And do you intend on, do you anticipate having optical or RF cross hyperlinks or each in your system?

Tyler: Yeah, I feel that’s one thing that we’re exploring. So I feel it’s one thing that’s on the desk, however I feel that we’re nonetheless in, we’re on the section proper now the place we now have deployed our first demonstration satellite tv for pc. And so for the demonstration satellite tv for pc, it has, I’ll say one thing that’s akin to, you realize, inter satellite tv for pc hyperlink, which we’re exploring between this, our kind of second launch that’s coming, subsequent 12 months.

And so. That’s one thing that we’re exploring as a part of the long run deployment of the system, however the kind of earlier iterations might, it is probably not required. So it’s, it’s one thing that we’re exploring and it’s one thing we’re keeping track of, however, it it’s possibly not essentially one thing that’s basically important to the system working.

lilly: Nicely, congratulations in your first launch and your upcoming second launch. I wished to pivot a little bit bit extra truly, and listen to a bit about, a few of your [00:25:00] analysis again while you have been within the academia and like how that led into, each your autonomous automobile and your present jobs.

Tyler: Yeah, that’s a, yeah, that brings me again

So to return to, I suppose my days as a grad pupil. So, the lab that I labored in was the GPS analysis lab at Stanford college. And it was a very nice atmosphere for me. It was one which centered, you realize, very a lot on that sort of place navigation downside, but additionally one which centered a little bit bit on, you realize, operational tasks for the FAA, in addition to we have been working with the federal aviation administration.

You realize, assist these sort of security, important methods, you realize, plane utilizing GPS to land plane utilizing GPS in flight. so, you realize, enthusiastic about issues about, you realize, what are security important use instances of place navigation and time particularly in transportation. And on this case, it was supporting civil aviation.

And in order that was a very, that was a very attention-grabbing atmosphere for me, since you might see the work that you just’re doing immediately impacting that trade. In some variety of years, it wasn’t that the grad college students have been engaged on issues, you realize, immediately sort of in operation, however that it wasn’t too distant from sort of essentially seeing the lifetime of operation.

So I feel from a, you realize, how that led into sort of the, the work that I used to be doing, sort of within the autonomous automobile world. I feel that enthusiastic about the issue of, you realize, what are the sort of ranges of situational consciousness that autos want when it comes to place navigation and time, you realize, what’s the degree of sort of security and integrity that these methods want?

Actually utilizing that sort of framework in a structured solution to develop, you realize, what would possibly that framework seem like in automotive, which was sort of new to that concept of getting place and knowledge as a part of that sort of security, important enter to, you realize, steering the automobile and, you realize, sort of protecting the human partially within the loop or completely within the loop, that are sort of issues that aviation had kind of labored by means of as a result of there are occasions the place the plane will fly itself.

There are occasions the place the plane sort of has the pilot within the. So it’s, you realize, enthusiastic about these sorts of issues in that framework. And I feel that that, that sort of facet of issues immediately led to the work that we did in kind of establishing, you realize, what is likely to be the framework and necessities for these autos going ahead.

You realize, enthusiastic about this in sort of a civil aviation strategy, as a result of. And while you evaluate the numbers, you realize, civil aviation actually has the most effective observe document that you may give you when it comes to security and, you realize, per miles traveled with people and sort of all these by all metrics. It’s it’s manner safer to take a seat at an airplane than it’s to take a seat in a automotive that that was that’s typically the, the takeaway and a part of that’s the effectively that people have quite a bit much less people in vehicles have quite a bit much less coaching than people in plane who’re working these issues.

And so it’s a. That that’s simply basically a type of variations. And, and, and a part of that’s, is that if one thing goes fallacious in an plane, such as you higher know what to do rapidly, whereas one thing goes fallacious in a automotive, you may pull off to the facet of the highway. And so, and so simply basically some, some variations there, however I feel that that’s, that’s one of many huge ones I feel was, you realize, bringing a few of that framework from, you realize, aviation to automotive and enthusiastic about these, these issues in that manner.

And the opposite facet of that was the sort of. You realize, the sort of business GPS and GNSS facet of that. So, you realize, transitioning from, you realize, You realize, the federal government system that helps, you realize, all these billions of units and created all this sort of, you realize, financial improvement and sort of all these developments, and enthusiastic about how that may evolve sort of within the so-called sort of new area age, which is the age while you consider issues like SpaceX and, you realize, these sort of gamers which have actually challenged the kind of so-called conventional aerospace, which is, extra the sort of, you realize, while you consider that as sort of these longer timelines, very danger opposed sort of gamers. And, and, you realize, enthusiastic about how, how would possibly a few of these sort of new strategies or new approaches in area, enthusiastic about these sort of mega constellations which might be being proposed by, on the time they have been being proposed, it didn’t but exist. So we’re speaking about sort of Starlink and OneWeb and you realize, all these sort of gamers, which appeared sort of like science fiction on the time, this was sort of within the 2015 sort of period earlier than lots of these things launched something or had been deployed.

These have been all sort of concepts on. you realize, a few of that work was kind of the elemental, okay, effectively, what would possibly you be capable to do with one thing like this? If, if these sort of satellites truly come to exist, if the launch prices truly come down, you realize, what is likely to be some functionality that you can leverage from that sort of area infrastructure?

So should you might deploy one thing like that for place navigation and time, you realize, what would possibly that seem like? What would possibly the capabilities be? However I feel at that time it was sort of a okay, effectively that, that’s an attention-grabbing downside, however, It was in some sense, missing motivation. It was kind of a, okay, effectively, who needs this?

You realize, what do we want this for? GPS works very well. Each, I feel on the time it was like, effectively, we’ve performed it. You realize, GPS is in everybody’s pocket. What else might you need? And, and it wasn’t till I, I labored in an trade the place GPS, because it stood, wasn’t fairly sufficient for, for what they wanted that I kind of these dots linked at at the least on my facet to, to see, okay, effectively possibly this sort of strategy might assist this different facet as effectively.

So in some sense, you realize, there’s, I suppose studying from either side and sort of linked this stuff collectively, I suppose.

lilly: Yeah, that makes [00:30:00] sense. It’s very attention-grabbing to listen to the way it all connects. we’re developing on time, however I do have one final query. which is, are there different business gamers making an attempt to get into the GNSS area?

Like, do you’ve gotten any actual opponents proper now?

Tyler: Oh, there, positive. There’s positively of us on the market. So we’re not the one ones doing this. I feel that they’re, I received’t title all of them by title. Trigger I, I can’t communicate to everybody’s plans on the market, however I can communicate to a, a number of basic developments that, that we’ve seen.

And one is that, you realize, the, the oldsters on the market who’re constructing these sort of mega constellations for communication functions. So, you realize, the web from the sky sort of of us are positively inquisitive about offering one thing. I feel that it, it seems to be very completely different from, from what we’re working in the direction of, which is extra of a , you realize, particular excessive efficiency, you realize, GNSS, P and T sort of service, which seems to be quite a bit like what you have already got in your cellphone when it comes to chip set, when it comes to these sorts of, you realize, antenna, these sorts of things. Whenever you take a look at among the, you realize, the communication, methods, you realize, actually they’re a very completely different frequency bands.

Their consumer terminals are often fairly massive as a result of we want a fairly large antenna to kind of, full the hyperlink price range to get the sort of information charges that they’re speaking about. It, it they’re, they’re actually enthusiastic about it, however I feel that, you realize, their main aim is de facto, you realize, communication, however it’s kind of a, oh, we are able to, you realize, we now have this method, we are able to most likely assist some sort of navigation as effectively.

A minimum of that’s what we’ve seen to date. So I feel that that’s, that’s one of many opponents on the market. When it comes to others, we’ve seen some attention-grabbing stuff happening from truly one of many main, automotive OEMs on the market, which is a Chinese language firm referred to as Geely. They’re truly constructing and deploying their very own constellation, which is de facto to assist autonomous automotive actions. It’s, you realize, communication navigation sort of multi function bundle. And in order that’s, you realize, seems to be, you realize, one of many huge, one of many huge gamers on the market. And so there there’s actually another corporations as effectively. There are some established companies on the market right now, for instance, from Iridium, which is offering some P and T companies right now.

And there are different satellite tv for pc companies offering extra correction companies. So issues which might be correcting, offering further info to kind of praise the GPS sign, however not an extra, you realize, kind of ranging or GPS sign itself. In order that’s, I feel one of many, one of many main variations there.

Tyler: So, and we, we, and I feel since we’ve been doing this, we’ve seen some others, another corporations kind of suggest some comparable issues as effectively. So I feel we’re, it seems to be that, issues are heading on this course, I suppose.

lilly: Nicely, yeah, it’s positively an thrilling area to be in an thrilling time.

And. A very attention-grabbing thought. Thanks a lot for talking with me.

Tyler: Yeah, my pleasure. Thanks once more for, for the invitation to talk right here right now. And, yeah, this was nice dialogue.


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Lilly Clark


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